Desperate Muslims Ignorant Christians Part 2

Muslims are desperate to spread Islam. They capitalize on any opportunity they get, even “riding” on Christians’ ignorance to further their message. Do you know that March 2010 was one of the worst months for Islam in recent years? Most Christians don’t know it. Islam is in dire straits. Mosab Hassan Yousef, a Palestinian Muslim, had his autobiography, Son of Hamas published. Muslims are still infuriated about his “new birth.” Please visit the book’s page on Facebook to read their rage and frustration for yourself. Even their lifeline, Answering Christianity Dot Com, has run out of arguments and ideas to throw at Christians. Still, they have outsmarted Christians by employing a red herring in their attacks on Dr. Ergun Caner. While a lot of Muslims were seeking information about Jesus Christ online and looking for Christians to talk to, some of us have been busy on our blogs and webcasts entertaining Muslims who have an agenda.

The Kansas City Star reports that Muslim Public Affairs Council advertised openings for, “A calm, credible voice to soothe Americans’ fear of Islam.” These positions might still be open. Doesn’t this show how desperate American Muslims have become in their efforts to “market” Islam? We Christians don’t see the sign, instead we engage in public name calling. We have been devouring one another with Muslims as our cheerleaders.

My intention to get involved in this public discussion has nothing to do with attacking a Christian. I believe Dr. James White is a man of God, called to proclaim Him just like the Caner Brothers. I would like this public quarrel among Christians to stop. We can spin this discussion whichever way our hearts desire but in the end we will realize that there is no justification for it in the Word of God. Jesus Christ said, “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.” Matthew 7:6, NIV. Our theological differences do not warrant our attacks on each other. We need to wake up because our arrogance, bias, distractions, divisions, and ignorance are boom for the enemy of the Gospel.

We read information on Mr. Khan’s website “fake ex-Muslims dot com” and watched the videos but do we even question his mission, which is clearly stated in a verse from the Qur’an, 61:8, “They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His Light, though the unbelievers hate it.” Jews and Christians who rejected Prophet Muhammad were charged with attempts “to extinguish Allah’s light.” Do you now see how any Muslim would have a problem with a non-Muslim, especially one who rejected Islam and now exposes it?

Muslims started it with ex-Muslims, now they are taking it a step further in attacking Dr. White. He is already under a Muslim’s attack, being accused of denying “the doctrine of eternal security.” I bet there will be more of these attacks after the dust “settles” on the current discourse. His debates, podcasts, and speeches will be dissected. Muslims are on a mission and we are oblivious.

There is a lot of information to share and I do not want to confuse you with a long post today. I am not defending the discrepancies in Dr. Ergun Caner’s testimony but debunking the claim that the Caner Brothers cannot be experts on Islam. I would like to address the “hadith 9.57” issue that has been a staple for Dr. White’s discussion (Question 20 on his open letter to Liberty University) and deal with Mr. Khan’s accusations next week.

Dr. White appeared on Engaging the World radio program on Thursday and discussed the Caner Brothers’ first book, Unveiling Islam. He spent a great deal of his airtime on their “incorrect” citation of aHadith (plural for Hadith), the first one being on page 19. He highlighted how there are other aHadith, which are quoted the same throughout their book. For your information, there is no “official” way to cite Hadith. The most authentic Hadith collection is Sahih Bukhari. Many times when it is quoted, it comes without the name because it is the most authentic and widely referenced. I have checked some of the aHadith in question and they come from Sahih Bukhari. If there were any errors on the Caner Brothers’ part, it was very minor. A side note: Mr. Khan read through Unveiling Islam and if this argument about the “incorrect” citation of the Hadith were an issue, with them being galore, he would have jumped on it. I bet he is very smart and stayed out of it. Here we are grappling with it.

I have Hadith hardcopies at my disposal and it took me only a few minutes to find that “hadith 9.57” is from Sahih Bukhari and if the Caner Brothers had wanted to make it clearer it should have read “Bukhari hadith 9.57″ or “Bukhari 9.84.57” or “Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57.” You can tell there is more than one way to cite Hadith.

I prefer to quote the same Hadith “Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57,” because Muslims have always challenged my assertions of Islam and I do not want to give them a foothold, especially when they are suspicious of even the objectivity of my work. Sahih Bukhari has 9 volumes and when it is quoted, there is an option to leave out the Book Number, which was the case for the Caner Brothers.

Dr. White has been raising doubts about how an ex-Muslim and now an expert of Islam could make such an egregious mistake, an equivalent of an evangelical Christian quoting John 3:16 as Bible 3:16. He believes that there is only one “correct” way to cite “hadith 9.57,” which should be “Bukhari hadith 9.57.” He should have verified prior to airing his views. That would have averted the introduction of Bible 3:16 to our vocabulary. He is not justified to disparage the Caner Brothers solely based on his Islamic library, which surprisingly contains only books that cite Hadith a particular way.

There are other books in print that quote “Bukhari hadith 9.57” as “hadith 9.57” or “hadith 9:57.” If you can’t believe it, Google Books can answer your question. Please type these two options and read for yourself. Also, Cruel and Usual Punishment: The Terrifying Global Implications of Islamic Law Nashville: (Thomas Nelson, 2008), 231, uses the same Hadith and quotes it “hadith 9:57.” The same applies to a Pakistani Muslim scholar Maulana Muhammad Ali who quoted “Sunan Abu Dawud Volume 1 Book 1 Number 55” as (1.1.55). I do not see an attribution anywhere and if you want to read it, it is in public domain here. A Manual of Hadith Index (Public Domain, 1944), 40. Mark you; Sunan Abu Dawud ranks below Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim and no Muslim made a fuss about this famous scholar just citing (1.1.55).

Unveiling Islam was not written for a scholarly audience. This book received great editorial reviews. The audience is evangelical Christians. I bet most of them do not even know what Hadith is. Hence, a trivial matter which is not worth arguing over unless of course someone has an agenda.

Dr. White’s preferred way of citing Hadith, “Bukhari hadith 9.57,” had one mention in the Caner Brothers’ Unveiling Islam, page 249. I do not recall him saying on Engaging the World radio appearance that the brothers had cited Hadith “correctly” at least once. So, I asked him if he would issue an apology or correction and his response, “Your bias and irrationality is difficult to understand. Amazing double standard. Open your eyes.” I was just trying to point out to him that his preferred way to cite Hadith made it in their book. He should have acknowledged it on the national radio or apologize for the generalization. Instead, he blogged about my “irrationality” and blamed it on my cultural background. You can read his blog entry here.

Muslims are on a mission, please let us not aid and abet to their tactics that attempt to discredit the Caner Brothers, other Christians of Muslim background, Dr. James White, et al. We should give our brothers the benefit of the doubt before going global with what Muslims bring to our attention. We need to become aware of the desperate tactics Muslims employ even attempting to discredit the Bible, Jesus Christ, and etcetera. It is my prayer that this controversy surrounding the Caner Brothers ends according to the guidelines set forth in the Word of God. I hope we have learned from our “giving” and “throwing” of “what is sacred” to unbelievers. We have seen its ramification. Let us seek a biblical ending!

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  • http://dianaruth.wordpress.com/ Diana P.

    William. It is my opinion that James White has bigger issues than what is on the surface. I believe he twists words and facts to represent his version of the truth, because of these “issues”. Yes, he is out to destroy – not build up. My own blog: http://dianaruth.wordpress.com/ has what I have to say about all of this in more detail. I am not going to discuss this back and forth with you here. Fighting and bickering amongst ourselves does nothing for the kingdom of God.

  • WIlliam Tyndale

    “James White is out to destroy Ergun and Emir Caner.”

    With the truth??

  • http://wp.me/pIKnh-5O Diana

    I think you are right – the bickering does need to stop…..BUT – I don’t see Dr. Ergun or Emir Caner bickering. I see one man, and his group of white-heads jumping up and down like a bunch of raving lunatics crying “foul!!” “unfair!!”. I see James White as the ring-leader in all of this. All the while he says he has “no overt fascination” with Dr. Ergun Caner. Then in a recent blog he says he would like this to end “BUT”….oh the proverbial “but”.

    Give me a break – James White no more wants this to end than a farmer wants a drought! James White thrives on all of this – he feeds on it like a parasite on a dead fish.

    Even if Ergun Caner bowed down and did everything the pompous James White has asked him – no DEMANDED him – to do, it would not be enough to satisfy James White. James White is out to destroy Ergun and Emir Caner. The question is *why* , brother.

    I’m telling you, what his sister has said about the sexual abuse by their (James White’s) father must be true. Just look at James’ behavior!! His own behavior points to the truth of it. Until James White finds healing for all of that hurt – he will continue to hurt others. Fact.

    http://wp.me/pIKnh-5O

    Diana (drpenn on twitter)

  • http://razorskiss.net/wp/ RazorsKiss

    Why are you masking your identity?

    I’m not. Click the link to my site. It’s very easily available. Even if I was – what does it matter? I’m very easily contactable.

    By the way, the way Dr. White deals with people who disagree with him, how arrogant he gets, that is what turns off Muslims. Muslim ministry is not about debating them, calling them “irrational” and their arguments “emotive” in order to score points.

    How about saying that their arguments are emotive, irrational, or inconsistent? That is what I said. Please read more carefully next time.

    I have read through your posts and it seems like you have no idea what I have been writing about.

    While that is a bold assertion, it would be nice if you’d give an example for your readers, instead of merely asserting.

    You could be Dr. White masquerading as some guy.

    Or, you could go to the website that links from my name. It’s very simple, sir.

    Mark my words. Unless Dr. White quits discussing the Caner Brothers, debasing them while exalting himself, I will continue with this endeavor.

    Once again – you are presenting us with an emotive argument, devoid of factual, logical information. Please provide this.

    Wait for Monday and you will see for yourself how he would need to revise his “open letter” to Liberty University and jettison some of his talking points.

    I’m sure you’ll have it all over twitter yet again ;)

    If you really care about the truth and Muslim ministry, you need to tell him to quit attacking these Christians of Muslim background.

    Why do I need to? Again, please provide an argument for why I should so so.

    Dr. White is the only apologist I know who openly criticizes people he disagrees with by name.

    Can you explain why it is better to do so without naming people? Above, you were criticizing me for using a pseudonym. Is this consistent? Further, yet another assertion sans argumentation.

    I am convinced that he cares less about the Caner Brothers’ repentance but score some popularity from this saga. His story keeps on changing.,/em>

    Can you provide an argument to demonstrate either claim?

    You also need to come out openly and reveal you identity. Why do my fellow Calvinists who are Dr. White’s sympathizers and followers commonly use pseudo names? Where is your integrity?

    Sir, go to my site. Seriously. It’s all right there. Furthermore, I find it oddly inconsistent that you are criticizing others for integrity issues – in public – when your prior argument is that you must follow a biblical pattern in the matter of public claims. I don’t have anything in my inbox from you. Inconsistency, as Dr. White often says, is the sign of a failed argument. As Dr. White told you when you called in, a public statement can be publicly responded to – the pattern laid out that you referred to is for use in the local church.

    As for you trying to tell me to quit, saying that you are concerned about my credibility because I stand with my fellow ex-Muslims who have sinned and who Dr. White and his Reformed-minded Christians have concocted ways to drive them off the face of the earth is laughable.

    Can you give an argument for why this is so? This is yet another assertion, without even an attempt to demonstrate it.

    You dismiss them as scholars of Islam with your shallow arguments and I stand by them because you have no clue what you have been talking about.

    Can you demonstrate this?

    You also dismiss them as devout ex-Muslims. Who are you to draw these conclusions when the court documents are inconclusive?

    Can you demonstrate this?

    You, Dr. White and the rest of his followers just pontificate, thus giving the Reformed faith a bad reputation.

    Can you demonstrate this?

    Dr. White cried foul saying that Liberty University had not been investigating Dr. Caner. And when Liberty decided to, he changed his tune.

    Can you give any sort of factual reference for this?

    All Christian leaders I have talked with who also work directly with Muslims agree with me that Dr. White has some major issues.

    Argumentum ad populum. Fallacious argumentation, sir. Also given without any sort of citation. You’ve heard Dr. White in debate with people who assert “all scholars say”, or the like. What would the answer be to that assertion, Hussein?

    Some of them know him personally and have intimated to me their frustration with him.

    Someone’s emotional state concerning a person is hardly an argument of any sort.

    If there will be any fallout, it will affect Dr. White and his ministry. So, tell him to go back to the basics and quit ruining the Dividing Line’s reputation. We might as well call it the Dissing Line because that label fits so well these days.

    Ad hominem, naked assertion.

    Sir, I wish you the best, but with the mass of assumptions, emotive arguments, assertions, and fallacies you’ve presented, is there any wonder that we’re not overly convinced? Please give something substantive in response. As it stands, I’m afraid that you are simply just not going to make any impression unless the standards of your discourse improve.

    Sincerely,
    Joshua. (It’s all on my site, Hussein. Not everyone has to be like you and use their real name as their url, okay?)

  • Mlynn

    Thank you for all of your well balanced comments. The main gut-wrenching issue for me after learning about all of this 3 days ago has been the fact that this is being done in public, in coordination with Muslims and the newspapers. How is this furthering the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Is this bringing God glory? I am SURE that the Muslims are loving every bit of this — as you have already pointed out.

    I am pretty sure I have also figured out what the “straw that broke the camel’s back” was that got James White started on the Caner brothers, in particular Ergun Caner after researching the aomin blogs. I could find no mention of Ergun Caner in the blogs from April, 2009 through September, 2009. Suddenly, things changed in October, 2009 — specifically on October 8, 2009 — his Radio Free Geneva Program.

    On October 15, 2009 — the attacks started on Ergun Caner as well as a request that people furnish James White with more information on who Ergun Caner had debated. Things were quiet until February, 2010 when James White revealed on 2/23/2010 that he had been having some correspondence with a young muslim from the U.K. since October/November on Ergun Caner.

    I could be wrong — but this has a very strong appearance of being correct.

    I have no way of knowing what Ergun Caner has done wrong or what sins he has committed. We ALL have sin problems. I did get to read his repentance that he posted a few months ago before it was taken offline. It appeared to be very genuine to me.

    I don’t really have a “dog” in this fight, as I really know very little about the Caner brothers and know very little about James White. But, what I DO know is that these personal, public attacks, etc. are ungodly and unscriptural.

    I want to finish with these scriptures which speak for themselves:

    Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

    Have I “arrived” yet? No!! I am not perfect. None of us are. But, I think that it is at times like these that we need to step back and look to see what God has to say about it in His Word.

    Once again, thank you for your two articles.

  • RazorsKiss

    Sir, I’ve read your articles, as well as all of Dr. White’s, all of Jason’s, TurretinFan’s, Gene’s, and practically everything that’s been posted on this topic thus far. TurretinFan has responded thoroughly to this topic in this post.

    I responded to many of the objections most commonly made in my recent post. For some reason, the link to it is gone in the preceding comment of mine. It’s easy to find, however.

    Notice, also, that there is a list of 20 questions for Dr. Caner’s defenders that is also in that post. Would you care to attempt to answer those? My list of questions for Dr. Caner is by no means complete. I’ll likely add to it at some point today. In any case, I’d invite you to read the most recent posts by TurretinFan, Dr. White, and myself for a brushstroke of what the problem really is.

    Most of your comments above seem to be an appeal to mediocrity in scholarship. Would it not have behooved them to cite the Hadith consistently? Would it not have behooved them to cite it with clarity? Whether evangelicals are ignorant is precisely the point. Why not cite the Hadith in such a way that they may be referenced easily, that they may seek out these things for themselves?

    As for the cultural comments, I listened to the same show you did. I have had discussions with very, very many Muslims. In most cases, they are not interested in factual data. Their arguments are primarily emotive, not logical. The same is true of most Evangelicals – this is true. However, the _best_ Islamic apologists argue this way. Emotional appeals are what you are offering to us. Emotional appeals are precisely the opposite of what our theology demands from us. What you are offering us is emotive arguments. While I’m sure they are heartfelt, they _ignore_, utterly, the mountains of factual data that have been amassed that demonstrate that Dr. Caner has been anything but honest. Instead, your focus has been on an emotional appeal for unity – and I’m afraid to say – at the cost of truth and consistency.

    If you’d like to argue your case forcefully, please do so logically, not emotionally. I can very much understand the personal investment that you have in this issue – however – we _must_ set those emotional attachments aside and examine the issue for truth. If I may, I’d like to point something out to you. By defending Dr. Caner, you are undermining your own testimony. When you defend a man who is patently, obviously, lying to a great extent about himself, his background, and his expertise, you are damaging your OWN credibility. You are a convert from Islam. No one questioning Dr. Caner’s honesty from our side remotely questions that he is, as well. However, by defending him – from no logical basis, as far as I can tell – you are damaging your OWN credibility as a witness to Muslims. His damaged credibility will thereby attach to you.

    Please, sir – for the sake of your own ministry to Muslims, and that of others of us, please stop. I have no reason to attack you – and I haven’t. I’ve simply pointed out that your defense is on emotional grounds. That isn’t good enough to salvage Dr. Caner. It won’t be good enough to salvage you, when the truth comes out, either. Where do you think the media will go looking next, Hussein? Please, please think about this – and think very long and hard about it. If you defend Dr. Caner as you have been, you leave yourself open to criticism as well. Unfortunately, for good reason. Just _please_ look at the vast amount of evidence that Dr. Caner has been dishonest. Do you want your name attached to that any further? It will be. I won’t be doing it, but the media will. You don’t want that, and neither do I.

    • http://www.cracksinthecrescent.com Hussein

      Why are you masking your identity? By the way, the way Dr. White deals with people who disagree with him, how arrogant he gets, that is what turns off Muslims. Muslim ministry is not about debating them, calling them “irrational” and their arguments “emotive” in order to score points.

      I have read through your posts and it seems like you have no idea what I have been writing about. You could be Dr. White masquerading as some guy. Mark my words. Unless Dr. White quits discussing the Caner Brothers, debasing them while exalting himself, I will continue with this endeavor. Wait for Monday and you will see for yourself how he would need to revise his “open letter” to Liberty University and jettison some of his talking points. If you really care about the truth and Muslim ministry, you need to tell him to quit attacking these Christians of Muslim background.

      Dr. White is the only apologist I know who openly criticizes people he disagrees with by name. I am convinced that he cares less about the Caner Brothers’ repentance but score some popularity from this saga. His story keeps on changing.

      You also need to come out openly and reveal you identity. Why do my fellow Calvinists who are Dr. White’s sympathizers and followers commonly use pseudo names? Where is your integrity?

      As for you trying to tell me to quit, saying that you are concerned about my credibility because I stand with my fellow ex-Muslims who have sinned and who Dr. White and his Reformed-minded Christians have concocted ways to drive them off the face of the earth is laughable. You dismiss them as scholars of Islam with your shallow arguments and I stand by them because you have no clue what you have been talking about. You also dismiss them as devout ex-Muslims. Who are you to draw these conclusions when the court documents are inconclusive? You, Dr. White and the rest of his followers just pontificate, thus giving the Reformed faith a bad reputation.

      Dr. White cried foul saying that Liberty University had not been investigating Dr. Caner. And when Liberty decided to, he changed his tune. All Christian leaders I have talked with who also work directly with Muslims agree with me that Dr. White has some major issues. Some of them know him personally and have intimated to me their frustration with him. If there will be any fallout, it will affect Dr. White and his ministry. So, tell him to go back to the basics and quit ruining the Dividing Line‘s reputation. We might as well call it the Dissing Line because that label fits so well these days.

  • http://hereiblog.com/ Mark

    Hussein, you said

    Jesus Christ said, “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.” Matthew 7:6, NIV.

    Can you explain how you are applying this verse?

    Can you think of any other verses that apply to this situation?

    Thanks.

  • RazorsKiss

    Sir, Dr. White directly addressed everything in your post on the last DL. In fact, he stated the same thing you have said – that there IS more than one way to cite Hadith. However, the point was that the way that the Caner’s cited them in so many ways is NOT what you do. Further, that citing them as the equivalent of “Bible 3:16″ is hopelessly vague.

    I don’t know why you continue to post things like this, but to me, and most of the ones I’ve talked to, it is coming across as severely emotive, and lacking in any sort of address of the *factual* issues concerning Dr. Caner’s integrity.

    In my last post, I addressed many of these common objections – and sir, your objection is both common, and already addressed, in detail.

    • http://www.cracksinthecrescent.com Hussein

      Whatever your name is, you just missed the whole point. You don’t seem to have read the article. Dr. White is all about himself. Listen to the radio interview he did with Tom Crouse. He was saying that you cannot cite Hadith as “hadith 9.57,” which is on page 19 of Unveiling Islam. By the way, they are all listed on the blog on which he concluded my view differs from his and his “adherents” because of my “irrationality,” which resulted from my upbringing. So, go and read and then we will have a discussion. By the way, Dr. White got what he wanted-Liberty University carrying out an inquiry. Why doesn’t he wait instead of wasting his time on Diving Line pontificating about Dr. Caner. What is his problem?