Lack of Absolutes in Islam Fizzles Attacks on Ex-Muslim

Dissing is not cool even by worldly standard. “Worldly” is synonymous with “ungodly.” You know what I am talking about if you are a Christian. Muslims and some Christians are culpable of dissing Dr. Ergun Caner. There are discrepancies in his testimony; however, that does not justify some of the accusations levied against him. Review Christian articles or webcast and decide for yourself if they are justified. Both Muslims and some non-Muslims have erred in their push for the “truth.” Even Dr. Caner’s Christian brothers and sisters have failed to exercise restraint.

This entry is my final one on this matter unless of course the dissing continues. It deals with certain “absolutes” in Islam that Dr. Caner’s main detractor Mr. Mohammed Khan has capitalized on to label him as a “fake ex-Muslim.” Please feel free to challenge my explanation or any part of it.

In a letter addressed to Dr. Caner—available on multiple websites—dated August 2, 2009, Mr. Khan claimed, “I can assure you that EACH AND EVERY ERROR [sic] you have made is not due to “not following that particular tradition”, rather it is due to the fact that you were never a Muslim and do not know a single iota about Islam.” [Bold emphasis mine.] What a bold statement! I decided to analyze Mr. Khan’s letter because it contains most of his absolute statements. He has been learning about Islam from his attacks on Dr. Caner. He stumbled through his quest, fumbling Islamic teachings. Does that disqualify him as a Muslim? You be the judge. This definitely has been a good learning experience for him. Christians need to be careful because Mr. Khan is desperate. He continues in the letter:

“For your information, Ramadan is an Islamic calendar month which has up to 31 days and for you to say you were a Sunni Muslim and you fasted during Ramadan for 40 days is laughable, and this in itself is proof that you know NOTHING about Ramadan or fasting.” [Emphasis mine.] Did you read that right?

Mr. Khan claims that a lunar calendar month has “up to 31 days.” And you are reading this from a self-proclaimed devout Muslim who is attempting to prove Dr. Caner as a “fake ex-Muslim” based on about two mistakes he has made in hundreds of speeches he has given in regards to the fast during Ramadhan. Even a non-Muslim who has never heard of Islam would correct Mr. Khan’s error about how many days are in a lunar month. He wrote this letter and sent it on August 2, 2009, with this error and also posted it on his website. He copied and pasted links on Facebook countless times. Even Muslims who read it did not point out the error to him until I brought to his attention on April 28, 2010. [You can see the exchange on Ergun Caner’s Facebook fan page.] Please visit fake ex Muslims dot com and see for yourself the correction in “red.” If we label people based on errors they have made, then Mr. Khan has just proven himself a “fake Muslim” because it is haram (unlawful) to fast on Iddul Fitr, the 31st day of fasting which falls on a new month, Shawwal. Prophet Muhammad said, “No fasting is permissible on two days of ‘Id-al-Fitr, and ‘Id-al-Adha.”

He told a gullible audience on February 22, 2010, “The thing we need to understand is that I myself am not an Arab, neither am I a Turk–I am a Muslim. When it comes to certain Islamic phrases such as Salah, Shahadah, Sawm etc–there is no different way of saying these things amongst THE ENTIRE MUSLIM WORLD–so for him to come out and say these things in the most bizarre of manners made me curious.” [Emphasis mine.] This blanket statement just shows how much Mr. Khan knows about Islam and Muslims outside of his Salafi bubble.

One participant did not let him get away with his generalizations and absolute statements. “Bizarre,” he calls how Dr. Caner did not pronounce certain Arabic terms. There was a very keen woman, Lydia, who pressed him on February 23, 2010, “As to terminology that ALL Muslims would use, a quick google search came up with this, “Muslims themselves use several terms to refer to Salah depending on their language or culture.” [Emphasis mine.] Wait a minute! What would Mr. Khan say? He fooled some Reformed and or Southern Baptist folks for a little over a day that Islamic terminologies were universal until Lydia noted something was not right. What did he do? He changed his story to the tune of… “Regarding your Google search–you are totally correct.” [Emphasis mine.] How come he did not present the whole truth from the outset?

Mr. Khan said in the letter, “I can assure you that not a Muslim on earth refers to their five daily prayers as their “Rakahs”, rather we call it “Salah.” I call this another absolute statement which is very easy to debunk using Lydia’s “google search.” Rakah is a set of bowings during Salah (the five daily prayers).” Muslims refer to Salah as imunz or namāz, which essentially is equivalent to referring to their five daily prayers as rakah because imunz or namāz come from “Indo-Aryan root namas meaning ‘to bow or prostrate.’” What is very ironic is Mr. Khan himself refers to the five daily prayers as moonz—he acknowledged when Lydia intervened but does not give Dr. Caner the benefit of the doubt that Rakah could be his family’s own way of referring to Salah.

He continued in the letter, “You mentioned in ONE CLIP that you believed in a Prophet called Baruch. There is no Prophet mentioned in the Qur’an or Hadith called Bahruch [sic]. Why did you make this up?” [Emphasis mine.] This is another absolute statement and Mr. Khan is learning on the job. There are 124,000 prophets in Islam and only 25 of them are mentioned by name in the Qur’an. What happened to the names of the 99.98 percent of these prophets?

When I was attending madrassa and I was learning names of prophets mentioned in the Qur’an, I used to recite different verses of the Qur’an that mention the prophets. Suratul A-Imran verse 84 states, “Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.” [Emphasis Mine.] “Tribes” is asbat. These are the twelve tribes that descended from Yaqub (Jacob) and they are mentioned along with some of the prophets. Could it be possible that Dr. Caner employed the same tactic to memorize the names of the prophets when he was a Muslim, forgot and mispronounced asbat (not a prophet) in this interview as Bahruch? I bet Mr. Khan cannot name the 25 prophets. Most Muslims don’t even know all their names. He is making it an issue and some Christians are being duped by one mistake.

Mr. Khan continued, “Why does the picture of you in the so called Madrassa, have a girl standing next to you? Why is there a girl praying in the same line as you “in the mosque”? This does not happen anywhere [in Islam].” [Bracket mine.] There is a picture of Dr. Caner in madrassa and Mr. Khan cannot accept it because if he does that debunks his assertion that Dr. Caner was “never a Muslim.” He cannot even give him the benefit of the doubt the girl in the picture could be his half-sister, which in Islam is acceptable and cannot break tahara, which is necessary for reciting the Qur’an and also observing the salah or moonz as Mr. Khan privately calls it. This is yet another absolute statement that is not so absolute after all.

Most Islamic teachings and practices lack absolutes because they are based on the exemplary life of Prophet Muhammad who lived his life as he willed. Have you ever wondered why Muslims kill each other over their religious differences when they follow the same prophet who supposedly got revelations from only one source, Allah? (The Ahmadiyya Muslims are in the news again. 80 of them were killed on Friday last week in Pakistani during the Friday prayer.)

I tried to discuss with Mr. Khan on a blog about these absolutes and it did not take long that he cried foul and I was banned. I had brought to his attention how it was okay that Prophet Muhammad touched one of his wives—grounds to nullify a prayer—when he was praying but it did not nullify his prayer. Mr. Khan was touting these absolutes fooling gullible Christians and I was not given a chance to debunk his claims. Thankfully, a controversy, which drives my point home, rocked Saudi Arabia within a few days. Sheikh Ahmed al-Ghamdi—not to be confused with one the 9/11 hijackers—called for “easing the rules for prayer in mosques, and allowing men and women to mix freely.” This man is not your ordinary Muslim scholar. He is the head of muttawa, the Saudi religious police. He said, “Those who prohibit ikhtilat cling to weak ahadeeth, while the correct ahadeeth prove that mixing is permissible, contrary to what they claim.” There goes another absolute statement.

Dr. Caner has said a lot of things in hundreds of speeches he has given. Muslims look for opportunities to discredit ex-Muslims and even some Christians. He has given them a foothold and that should not widen the rift between Christians. It is a shame that even Christians mock Dr. Caner for mispronouncing Arabic terms or reciting “gibberish” while he converted to Christianity a few decades ago. People have no idea how much one can forget after leaving Islam. I am speaking from experience. If we use his recollection of verses from the Qur’an to justify our attacks, we are doomed. Mr. Khan has been a Muslim since birth and guess what? He says, “I myself can speak Pashto so I am familiar with some Persian and Arabic. I can read Arabic (not very well), but I did not spot any Arabic words either.” He cannot read Arabic well, which means Mr. Khan minimally understands Islam. His Arabic is probably worse than that of Dr. James White because Dr. White has a tutor. I bet it is worse than Dr. Caner’s because he could not correct Dr. Caner’s “gibberish” with his “prowess” of the Qur’an. Instead, he enlisted a recording.

Brethren, let us encourage a Muslim who comes to faith in Jesus Christ to read and memorize Bible verses. In the end, it is not his or her recollection of the Qur’an or the Hadith that matters, but “faith expressing itself through love.” Have a blessed day.

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  • Bennett Willis

    After looking at all the infomation that has turned up about EC, my conclusion is that Mr. Kahn was right in his original hypothesis. Except by the accident of birth, EC was never a Muslim.

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  • Mlynn

    Hussein — an EXCELLENT post. Thank you SO MUCH.

    Diana — your post on your blog was absolutely PERFECT!!! We can even see some of that brood of vipers in the comment section here. The fruit certainly show don’t they?

    Craig — rejoice in the abuse!! Jesus had to contend with much worse from the pharisees — which is hard to fathom. One note of caution Craig: don’t feel you have to justify yourself to the vipers. The most IMPORTANT thing is that you are a child of God — He knows you and you know Him — nothing else really matters.

    GBU

  • http://none Craig Daliessio

    Hussein,
    Hello brother, I wanted to thank you for your decent and well intentioned interchange with Mr. White yesterday. Your heart is good, dear friend. His however I am not so sure of. As he continues to try to discredit everyone and anyone who dare reject his positions and defend another brother, he displays more and more the fruits of his jealousy and envy and rage. He needs the repentance and prayer that he so readily demands from everyone else. My best to you in your continued service to our Savior Jesus, and to your brothers and sisters and to those you will win to knowledge of Him.
    You are in my prayers!

    Sincerely,

    Craig Daliessio

  • http://thegrandverbalizer19.blogspot.com/ Jonathan Dupree

    With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

    I just want to say thank you to Hussein Wario who linked to my blog information that is factual and relevant to this whole discussion. Namely that James White has made errors and blunders that need to be brought to people’s attention as well.

    I would kindly like for Hussein Wario to comment on the following incident.

    http://yahyasnow.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/christian-scholar-james-white-lets-the-ministry-down/#comment-70 < Apparently James White's teacher recently was teaching us all the opening chapter of the Qur'an.

    However please do note that the teacher apparently himself an Arab says, " Bismillah ir rahman ir raheem, ar rahman ar raheem….." hmmm.

    Why is there no Al hamdulillahi rabil 'alameen? What happened to this verse?

    http://transliteration.org/quran/WebSite_CD/MixYuwsuf/Fram2E.htm ???

    Is this divine providence? Is this James White and his own arrogance meeting him square in the face? If an Arab who is a teacher of James White can make such mistakes can we not allow for Ergun Caner to have made some simple errors as well?

    If not than how can we trust James White and ANY thing he has to say about Islam as authoratative if these are the kind of teachers James White has?

    Your comments are more welcomed by me.

  • http://none Craig Daliessio

    actually I am a grizzled veteran of the politics of Christianity…

  • Bennett Willis

    Craig,
    You say that Dr. Caner is your friend. Why are you damaging him like you are if he is your friend? Are you an immature Muslim, just having fun with stupid Christians? What’s going on?

  • http://none Craig Daliessio

    Mark,
    Liberty U did not recently “team up with” Glenn Beck. He spoke at Commencement. That is neither a co-mingling of ministry nor is it a recognition of his theology. He was not preaching in Chapel. He was not permitted, nor did he attempt to proselytize. On matters of patriotism and national pride Mr. Beck personal world view…and that of nealry all Mormons, agree completely.
    When I was a student on campus many years ago, Dr. Falwell hosted the Archbishop of the Richmond diocese. He spoke regarding the topic of abortion. While vociferously differing on many theological points, we agreed with the Catholic Church about abortion and pro life positions. (As I remember, Jerry took a lot of heat for that too)
    Ted Kennedy spoke at L.U. while I was there. Howls went up but it was an interesting and enlightening speech.
    A guest speaker is not an indicator of a policy or doctrinal switch. I was not concerned at all that Beck spoke to L.U.

  • http://hereiblog.com/ Mark

    Hussein,

    I’m glad you’ve cleaned up some of the comments. They were unhelpful.

    I believe there is some bias on your part concerning Dr. Caner due to both of you coming from a Muslim background. That is understandable. However, I’d like to point out a few things that I have challenged you on here and there.

    Concerning whether or not you believe Dr. Caner lied is not always clear. When you have a point to make in his defense you are all over twitter posting the same message to numerous people @ their names. However, I have yet to see a clear statement that says you believe Dr. Caner has lied about his past. You could have started this post very clearly with I believe Ergun Caner lied about his past, but it is being handled the wrong way. It should have been done like this…..

    Why not tweet something like:

    @drpenn I believe @erguncaner lied about his past, however he should have been treated differently, etc.

    @CraigDaliessio I believe @erguncaner lied about his past, however he should have been treated differently, etc.

    It seems that it does not bother you that Liberty University, a Christian institution, recently teamed up with Mormon Glenn Beck. When concerned Christians mentioned it online tweets came from Ergun Caner which ridiculed those concerned.

    This is why I asked you a question along the same lines of your concern of what you see as Muslims gaining the upper hand in the Caner controversy.

    I asked – Do you think Mormons got the last laugh with Glenn Beck speaking at Liberty with president Ergun Caner chastising concerned Christians?

    I ask this as one who came out of a sect of Mormonism. Are you concerned with these things at all?

    Brother, you ask others for consistency and I am asking you the same.

  • rookie

    Wario,

    how du you reconcile the fact that Caner does not even know Shahada?

    You know very well that he lies, otherwise he would need no people like you to defend him, he would be able to defend himself with no difficulty!!!

    One more question Wario,

    What if tommorow Caner stand up and say, I apologize for missleading the people – what will you do with your arguments trying to defend him???

    Think twice.

    Note that there are guys who follow all your texts.

  • http://www.aomin.org James White

    You aren’t that bright. If you were this wouldn’t annoy you like it does.
    Give my best to White’s mom…

    I have met hatefilled men and women over the course of my more than twenty five years of ministry, atheists, Mormons, Roman Catholics, etc., but I must confess with sadness the group that is the best at expressing hatred and spite is none other than the Baptists. I thought King James Only folks took the cake, but I have now learned that some Liberty folks may well hold the record for their capacity for the expression of unmitigated verbal bile. Mr. Daliessio stands at the head of the wild-eyed pack, to be sure. The above comment is beneath contempt, and marks a new low for anyone making the laughable claim to be a Christian.

    And since I have this box open (as unusual as that is), allow me to expose Craig’s dishonesty once again. When I first contacted him after his Twitter implosion, he wrote back threatening me with a lawsuit if I even responded to his e-mail. Given how vile his behavior was, I chose not to respond, not out of fear of such a childish threat, but because I have no interest in attempting to reason with irrational people. So the next day I get what was in reality one of the most vile, puerile, evil emails I have ever gotten from anyone, and from who? Craig, of course, the man who had the day before threatened to sue me if I replied to him. It was vile because it was based upon lies, libelous, slanderous, evil lies that other Canerites had forwarded to him. It was as disgusting as his comment above. Now Craig is faulting me for not publishing an evil email he sent to me, pretending it was an apology, and that after threatening me with a lawsuit if I responded to him! The level of abject irrationality and incoherence that marks his writing (and the writing of many of his compatriots) is astounding.

    James White

  • http://razorskiss.net/wp/ RazorsKiss

    “‘Repentance’ is a hatred of sin; it is a turning from sin and a determination in the strength of God to forsake it. ‘Repentance’ is a hatred of sin, and a forsaking it… Repentance is also a continual life-long act. It will grow continually. I believe a Christian on his death-bed will more bitterly repent than ever he did before. It is a thing to be done all your life long. Sinning and repenting—sinning and repenting, make up a Christian’s life. Repenting and believing in Jesus—repenting and believing in Jesus, make up the consummation of his happiness. ”
    ~C.H. Spurgeon

    Because of God’s mercy, men presume and think they may go on in sin. Should a king’s clemency, make his subjects rebel? The psalmist says, “there is mercy with God, that he may be feared” (Psalm 130:4)—but not that we may live in sin. Can men expect God’s mercy—by provoking his justice? God will hardly show those mercy who sin, because mercy abounds. “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? ” (Romans 6:1-2)
    ~ Thomas Watson

    Rev 3:3 – “‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.’”

    Just as a side note – what does Christ say at the end of that passage? Rev 3:19 – “Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.”

    Who? Christians.

    Again, repent, sir.

  • http://none Craig Daliessio

    Thanks for the vote of confidence Richard…I’d rather be me than you…or RK for that matter. I have drunk deeply of Grace and found out that when I was done…I didn’t have to pay the tab. “The Father of Jesus is very fond of me” a wise man once said Richard. It’s such a shame that you don’t grasp that truth.

    “All My Repenting Was Handled at Calvary..”

  • http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/ Richard McGough

    It appears that Craig Daliessio has placed himself outside the bounds of either rational or Godly discourse.

    He has broken both wings of his soul – Faith and Reason – in service of Caner’s lies.

  • http://razorskiss.net/wp/ RazorsKiss

    I have now met the SECOND talking jackass. One was in scripture.

    Ad hominem abusive. Simple name-calling.
    You might be the most singularly self impressed person on the planet. You are the real life embodiment of Ted Baxter.

    Ad hominem abusive.

    I loved your post…really…truly. I love when I read the vain attempts at written magnificence.

    Ad hominem. Nothing to do with the argument. Whether I’m a good writer or not has nothing to do with the argument. I know I’m not. It’s also irrelevant.

    As a writer, it is always easy to spot the people who think they are really gifted and really good at it. Pontificating is typically the first step.

    While I’m not sure how you think you know what I think… you’re quite wrong. I know I’m not a good writer. I do find it interesting that you haven’t yet made a single reply to my argument, however.

    Here’s a hint..Strunk and White’s “The Elements of Style”. Here’s another hint…see if the post office is hiring.

    Ad hominem.

    Now I know what happened to all those hippie beat poets from the sixties…they all had kids who were just like them and those kids all became followers of James White.

    Ad hominem.

    I was trying to figure out where the random finger snaps would best fit in with your endless / circuitous epic. I think I’ll have one of those “special” brownies and read it again…in my best Alan Ginsburg voice.

    You made it through an entire comment without making a single response to the content. I take it that means you don’t have a response? I also take it to mean that you don’t intend to abide by the Scriptural admonitions to speak with gentleness and reverence, to let your speech be seasoned with salt, giving grace to all who hear, or to speak the truth in love.

    Craig, let me make a short personal comment to you. As long as you persist in speaking and behaving in this fashion, you persist only to your detriment, and to the detriment of Dr. Caner. It’s quite amazing that I have seen very little argumentation in response to what we say, and loads of personal commentary. While you believe this is justified, I find it highly ironic that you are doing so in the comment section of a post attempting to rebuke people for “dissing” others. As can be clearly seen by any observer, that is precisely what you have engaged in. While Hussein and I disagree concerning what the intent of our criticisms of Dr. Caner are, it’s quite apparent that you have done precisely what he warns about in this post.

    Once again,
    Repent.

  • http://razorskiss.net/wp/ RazorsKiss

    “Nothing hacks me off like somebody who conveniently quotes portions of scripture to prove their point but forgoes other scripture that would refute it. How about JESUS’ command to go to your brother, then take a witness then take it to a group of witnesses and THEN take it to the CHURCH. NOT THE FRIGGIN BLOGOSPHERE YOU JAGGER! That isn’t the Temple OR the Church.”

    Interestingly, your comments fail to take into account the apostolic command to speak “with gentleness and reverence”, as well as the injunction to “speak the truth in love”. Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.

    Further, if you had kept track of the conversation between Hussein and I – and the comment was in response to his article, not to you, incidentally – you would know that this has been addressed. First, by Dr. White himself, and also by myself. I’ll leave it to you to find the relevant comments. Even if your assertion that this was not handled privately first was correct (it wasn’t), all of the comments in question were made in public. Second, and even more relevant for your the inconsistency of your own argument, Dr. Caner, Peter Lumpkins, Diana Penn, and other defenders of Dr. Caner have repeatedly used ad hominem arguments when challenged on the factuality of Dr Caner’s claims. Hussein here has come the closest to dealing with the arguments themselves, also we disagree on the success of those attempts in the case of the arguments of those of us who have worked alongside Dr. White on this issue. Frankly, your lack of charity is simply evidence of what we’ve been saying all along. One side is examining the information, the other side tends to engage in ad hominem, and ignore the information.

    “Freaking dimwitted Christians make me want to go back to the mortgage business. I am investing in broodmares for high horses because there has to be a shortage with all the ones being ridden around here. The point of those scriptures was NOT to make a public scene but to lovingly correct a brother. For the purpose of restoration.”

    Well, given that the Scriptures explicitly lay out what the responsibilities are of those rebuking and reproving, and those being rebuked and reproved, I think it’s rather obvious how this would be accomplished. Making a public scene was, and is not the intent. Making the call to repentance public, as it was rebuffed in private, and as a group, is the point. Which is what is covered in the Scriptures I laid out for you. I’d also like to point out the ad hominem character of your argument(s). Personal attacks, not attacks on the arguments themselves.

    “How would you EVER “restore” Caner now? Personally I don’t believe there is anything here but if there WERE…how does he EVER work in ministry again. How can this “brother” be restored?”

    Frankly, since he has refused to repent, he very well may have disqualified himself. That’s not for me to judge. However, “ministry” is done in the local church first. If he is restored, a repentant sinner may indeed be restored to ministry in a local church, or quite possibly to his current position at Liberty. I’m not going to tell Liberty what to do, nor am I going to tell Thomas Road what to do. If his pride is restraining him from repentance, it may very well also restrain him from the sort of ministry he is engaged in now. However, the gifts used in ministry are given, and used in the Spirit. The Spirit is quite capable of restoring such a one to any ministry He requires a man to engage in. I have full faith in the capability of God to restore one of His sheep to the fold if it wanders.

    “None of you friggin jackasses even thought about that did you? You just called the taxidermist because you had your trophy in your crosshairs. What will you do when LU exonerates him?”

    Quite frankly, sir, LU’s investigation has nothing to do with whether or not he is “exonerated”. The facts *quite* clearly point to his guilt in the matter. What LU does with those facts is between them and God – and they will be accountable for those actions to Him, not to me.

    However, I do note an interesting focus of your commentary – on how “important’ someone is. Scripturally, there is no such distinction – and any attempts at such distinction is always treated negatively. On the contrary, the emphasis is placed on *responsibility* – those who teach are held to a higher standard. Since Dr. Caner has failed to meet that higher standard, we have no choice but to reprove him publicly, as he has ignored everyone who went to him privately by any means. That is the emphasis here – to remove the reproach upon the Gospel caused by his actions as much as is possible, and to show that Christians can indeed show discernment in the culture of “celebrity teachers”. The Muslims now know that rebuke of public sin can and does happen – and quite frankly sir, your comments are part and parcel of that “celebrity culture”, and part of the reproach on the Gospel. Since Hussein unaccountably allows comments of your character on his blog, I thought I’d show the difference in approach.

    “PLEEEEEASE come after me! PLEASE!! Oh wait…I’m nobody.
    To quote the great Bruce Cockburn…”If I had a rocket launcher…”

    Inconsistency, sir, is the sign of a failed argument. I hope that I’m always nobody. As soon as I claim I’m somebody – or that any teacher is somebody – I’ve failed the test of Scripture. As have you. Our only worth is found in God.

    Repent, sir.

  • http://hereiblog.com/ Mark

    I wasn’t aware that Christians were to see others in the Kingdom as “somebodies” and “nobodies”. I also wasn’t aware that Scripture refutes Scripture.

    Rather, Scripture interprets Scripture. It seems wiser to reconcile the Scripture rather than stand it against itself. For example, if it is the case, in the context above, that Scripture refutes Scripture then Paul rebuking Peter publicly would be sinning based on Jesus commands in Matthew 18. This would mean we have the inspired book of Galatians positively promoting sin in Paul’s example.

  • http://none Craig Daliessio

    Razor kiss
    Nothing hacks me off like somebody who conveniently quotes portions of scripture to prove their point but forgoes other scripture that would refute it. How about JESUS’ command to go to your brother, then take a witness then take it to a group of witnesses and THEN take it to the CHURCH. NOT THE FRIGGIN BLOGOSPHERE YOU JAGGER! That isn’t the Temple OR the Church. Freaking dimwitted Christians make me want to go back to the mortgage business. I am investing in broodmares for high horses because there has to be a shortage with all the ones being ridden around here. The point of those scriptures was NOT to make a public scene but to lovingly correct a brother. For the purpose of restoration. How would you EVER “restore” Caner now? Personally I don’t believe there is anything here but if there WERE…how does he EVER work in ministry again. How can this “brother” be restored? None of you friggin jackasses even thought about that did you? You just called the taxidermist because you had your trophy in your crosshairs. What will you do when LU exonerates him? PLEEEEEASE come after me! PLEASE!! Oh wait…I’m nobody.
    To quote the great Bruce Cockburn…”If I had a rocket launcher…”

  • http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/ Richard McGough

    Hey there Craig,

    You wrote: “It’s really too bad you didn’t come after me instead…now THERE’S a past you’d have fun with!”

    How is it possible that you continue to miss the point? The controversy has nothing to do with any “sins” in Caner’s TRUE PAST!

    The controversy is about Caner’s CURRENT LIES about his FRAUDULENT PAST

    Get with the program dude.

  • http://razorskiss.net/wp/ RazorsKiss

    1 Tim. 5:20 – Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful [of sinning].

    In the presence of all.

    Matt 23:1-21 – Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say [things] and do not do [them]. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with [so much as] a finger. But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels [of their garments]. They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call [anyone] on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, [that is], Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. [Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation]. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, [that] is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.’ You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering? Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears [both] by the altar and by everything on it. And whoever swears by the temple, swears [both] by the temple and by Him who dwells within it.’

    Note vs1. Public speech, in front of the crowd and the disciples. Note then the following condemnation of the Pharisees, and their sinful actions. It goes on for the entire chapter.

    Gal 2:14 – But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

    Notice – “in the presence of all”

    That is all I need to say. You can continue to offer up this line of argument if you want, Hussein – but Scripture militates against it.

  • http://none Craig Daliessio

    Richard…buddy…
    I once found you mildly amusing, now I find myself thinking of you under the moonlight. Seriously? You never answered MY questions. But you know what…I just don’t care anymore. This morning I woke to find myself so disgusted with this one segment of “The Church” that I feel like drinking heavily. Because when I stepped back from all this I found myself staring the REAL issues in the face and the real issues suck. On one side you have people who see all the HUMANS involved here and feel badly for them…well for the good ones anyway. On the other side you have the drek who only see an opportunity to hook their wagon of death to someone’s star because they themselves don’t have a star. This isn’t about Caner, this isn’t about “truth” or Turkey or Sweden or Arabic or Islam or madrassas or the Qu’rrrrrran (James White’s emphasis attached). This is about jealousy and some pathetic need to dig out those dusty notes from college and all those important books on church polity and pretend to be important and go after a nice big trophy for your wall.
    It’s really too bad you didn’t come after me instead…now THERE’S a past you’d have fun with! I am sick of Christians…seriously I am. Not all of us, but there is a side of “the church family” that I want to beat the living crap out of. If only for being such bad relatives.
    My question is Who is next? Who does White have in his sights after this is done. His sister maybe?

  • http://none Craig Daliessio

    Richard,
    You either play a smart man in the movies or you stayed at a Holiday Inn express last night. Either way you are capable of scrolling through my post and seeing the treatment I was referring to, not reiterating your baseless accusations as if saying it frequently enough will validate it magically. You find a way to insert your tragic envy-riddled attacks into every post here and it’s really boorish. I’m guessing you are a reformed theologian like your pal Pee Wee Herman out there at “Golden Gate Theological Seminary”. Now THERE’S a major player in the game. Rolls right off your tongue doesn’t it? Do they rent space by the week? I wonder what Jesus thinks of your crap? Seriously. I wonder if He thinks maybe he suffered a bit too much for people with the arrogance you display. I think election / predeterminism is about the most pathetic theology ever foisted on mankind but if God DOES elect…I bet there is serious discussion of hanging chads and a recount right now, where you and White and the gang of idiots are concerned. Let me save you some effort…you will NEVER convince me to take your side. NEVER. Someone else might come along someday with something concrete but YOU? You have the sincerity of The Grinch. Your motives are so obvious. I wonder who is next on your list. Me? You gonna show up at ball parks and claim I’m not really Italian? My lack of concern what others think gives me such wonderful freedom. I don’t care about you, or White, or his two mule / two elder church, or his 7 followers. I’m going to stick my finger in your chest or Whites chest (although it would probably go on through) or whomever and tell you to your face how much damage you have done and how I despise you for it.

    Lovingly yours

    Regards

  • http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/ Richard McGough

    Hey Craig,

    You said “Caner has done nothing here that deserved this treatment.” What “treatment” are you talking about? The only thing anyone has done is said “Caner lied here and here and here and here and … and here and here and here.” And that’s the truth. Is that not the treatment that every chronic unrepentant serial liar deserves?

    Richard

  • http://none Craig Daliessio

    Richard…
    No…if you’ll notice I said “if your accusations were true, they amounted to…” (or words to that effect…I am watching the hockey game and I don’t feel like checking) my point was not that I concede anything except IF those allegations were true is still amounts to nothing. Nothing that shouldn’t have been addressed with an email or a phone call or a letter sent by carrier pigeon. Caner has done nothing here that deserved this treatment. And surely nothing that should have this splashed across local newspapers. This is LDS at work…Liberty Derangement Syndrome. Everyone hates the biggest and the best. Doc Falwell faced this sort of thing about once per quarter and usually laughed in their faces and invited his detractors to dinner. My gut feeling is that James White would have come as close as anyone has ever gotten to seeing Doc flip the bird. But that’s just my opinion.

  • http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/ Richard McGough

    Craig wrote “And now you can NEVER get the toothpaste back in the tube. MY FRIEND can never undo what people like YOU did to him in venues where the matter NEVER BELONGED! PERIOD! “

    I already answered this, but let me do it again. Ergun could have prevented ALL OF THIS if he had simply spoken the truth when first confronted months ago. And he could have still successfully avoided it all if he had simply spoke the truth when the news was published in Christianity Today. But no – he chose the path of darkness and lies. He deleted his bio for over a month from his own website. He did not even give any statement at all to the reporter of Christianity Today! He has refused to speak truth about the simplest of things, like where he was born, if he can speak Arabic, when he came to America, etc., etc., etc..

    So if you want to blame anyone for this public demonstration of Christians lying and covering up the truth, you have no one to blame but Ergun Caner, and his supporters like you.

  • http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/ Richard McGough

    Hey there Craig,

    So are you admitting that Caner has lied? Are retracting your assertion that he “has done nothing wrong”?

    If so, does that mean that you are also retracting your baseless accusation that I am in need of repentance on this issue?

    Thanks, my “dear brother,”

    Richard

  • http://none Craig Daliessio

    Richard…the more you rant about this the more I enjoy imagining the veins in your neck straining against your flesh at the thoughts that nobody is changing their minds. I just LOVE it when NOBODIES…you know…like YOU…attack somebody and jump up on their soapbox and decide how they should repent and what their punishment should be and what’s truth and what’s not. It’s wonderful The only real sadness I have is that NOBODIES like you and James White, and heck even me, can fail in anonymity because being NOBODY means you are INVISIBLE. If you had anything to say, people would listen. If you had some measurable gift, you’d be in demand. But really…in the grand scheme…you’re nobody. Oh wait…you ARE the guy who apparently should be listened to…even by God Himself. Listen, Rick…tonight when you are saying your prayers and probably demanding that God extract an apology out of me under pain of torture, remember that if God forbid, Dr. Caner disappears from the mainstream of Evangelicalism you, King James White, and Mo Khan will all be reduced to the anonymity you were fighting to get free from when this broke. Remember that all those who “exposed frauds” in the past have all somehow been relegated to the great nothingness of “nobody-dom” too. White in particular NEEDS the Caners…sort of the way a Remora needs a shark. What is the end game here? Seriously? Caner is shamed publicly? You know as well as I do that THAT would be the only thing White would be satisfied with. He couldn’t give a rats’ hairy rump about “repentance on his knees” where Ergun Caner is concerned. He wants to remove Caner because Caner is blocking the light that he feels should be shining on him alone. Caner breathes up all Whites air and he hates him for that. And make no mistake…James White HATES Ergun and Emir. The passionate hatred is so evident.
    This is why I so deeply LOVE not being affiliated with one denomination…because I am free to speak my mind without fear of the next regional meeting of a bunch of cloistered candy ARSES who spend each waking moment absorbed in where to find the next “appearance of evil” to avoid. THIS IS NOT HOW A BROTHER IS TREATED…PERIOD. Let’s assume the accusations you laid out are correct…the very WORST you have here is a traffic jam of facts and datelines spread out over 20 plus years of speaking. If you want to whizz your life away googling every preacher on earth you will find the same inconsistencies from time to time. IF your accusations are correct…so what? You shoot him a friendly email and you say “Ergun…listen brother, I have noticed inconsistencies in some of your testimony. It’s here and here and here. I thought you’d like to know, perhaps you slipped up or were rushing your speech and got muddled. Perhaps you underwear was too tight that day…WHATEVER! ” A little diplomacy and a little REAL brotherly love and not a bunch of pathetic jealousy driven, desperate to be noticed at any cost wannabe’s attacking someone who has been elevated to a place that occasionally gets him noticed.
    I am so glad I won’t have to worry about this crap. Very early on, when I decided it was God’s calling I heard and would answer, I also decided I wouldn’t care what ANYONE thinks of me or how I serve and worship My Lord. My salvation came about with a shotgun in my mouth, Richard. THAT is where God found me. I have been through things that would make you cringe and those things have rendered me immune to what anyone thinks of my walk with God. Except maybe my daughter.
    The real truth here is that the very WORST of the accusations deserved nothing more than a one on one discussion and instead they were treated like a rape took place. And now you can NEVER get the toothpaste back in the tube. MY FRIEND can never undo what people like YOU did to him in venues where the matter NEVER BELONGED! PERIOD! It’s for that reason that I wish ill on everyone involved. It’s THAT which I hope is visited on your house and James Whites house and everyone else who decided to jump in and throw gas on the fire. You seriously got THAT worked up about my comment to James White but you’ve not considered how your comments have wounded the ENTIRE BODY! The picture got no bigger for you than extracting your pound of flesh from a man who you would call “brother”. (it’s why I NEVER allow people to call me that…not in church anyway. It makes my skin crawl) I hope you and James White are seated between me and Ergun at the marriage supper. And I hope they serve something that gives me gas.

    Love always…

  • Christian

    Dr. Caner has lied substantially about his past, as well as about some of his credentials. Certainly this brings harm to the body of Christ. However, to base his lies on what is such an apparent desire to discredit those of the Muslim faith not only damages the whole of Christianity, but has also brought harm to individual Muslims who are the recipients of his attacks directly or as they spread through the population.

    Dr. Caner chose to address the world with the mis-information that converts from Islam to Christianity are imperiled in Sri Lanka. In doing so he either launched or helped drive a wave of anti-Islamic sentiment that continues today and drives many well-meaning Christians to demand that Franklin County, the state of Ohio and the United States DO SOMETHING to protect Rifqa Bary from her Muslim parents. One has to wonder how much his writings had a role–either directly or through their mutual friend Jamal Jivanjee–in convincing Rifqa herself that her parents are bent on murdering her. This is a shameful burden to place on a young girl–whether a convert from Islam, or any other child passing through the trials of adolescence.

    Dr. Caner has a lot to atone for. Any who are truly his friends will be urging him to do so, not finding ever more creative ways to stretch the truth to fit his narrative.

  • http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/ Richard McGough

    Hi Craig,

    Thank you for your gently worded response. We don’t have to agree about everything, but is good to write with as much mutual respect as possible.

    Personally, I didn’t notice any emphasis on fear in White’s response. The one thing that stood out to me was that your words seemed excessively rude, and your accusation of White being a “fraud” seemed ludicrous in light of the charges against Caner.

    I don’t understand what you mean when you say that Caner “hasn’t done anything wrong.” The evidence is overwhelming. It would take many pages to document it all. So let’s just focus on a single quote from his sermon to the Prestonwood Baptist Church in which he said the following:

    I was born in Sweden, raised in Turkey, came to America in 1978. When I came to America I came through Brooklyn, New York, of all places, which is where I learned English.

    Now let’s compare the words of Ergun Caner with the truth of reality. We know that Ergun was born in Sweden and that he came straight to Ohio from Sweden when he was 2-3 years old. Therefore, that one quote involves the following FIVE LIES:

    1) Do you admit that he lied when he said he was born in Istanbul?

    2) Do you admit that he lied when he said he was raised in Turkey?

    3) Do you admit that he lied when he said he came to America in 1978?

    4) Do you admit that he lied when he said he “came through Brooklyn, New York”?

    5) Do you admit that he lied when he said it was there in Brooklyn, in 1978, that he learned English?

    If you deny any of these five lies, please provide the evidence so I can “get on my knees” and repent!

    Thank you my “dear brother” –

    Richard

    PS: If you enjoy this little game of “hide and seek” with truth, I could provide a list of 20 Ergun Caner lies for you to answer.

  • http://none Craig Daliessio

    Dearest Brother Richard…
    The cowardly lion, Mr. White, failed to post the thoughtful and gently worded apology I emailed him after that. I find it laughable that ANYONE considers the word “arse” a threat. I can only assume that Jimmy boy didn’t want to let the world know I had offered that apology because…hey…how can you milk sympathy from your 7 followers if you can’t feign fear, and how can you fear a guy who apologized? I think his arse is probably covered in one of the views from the multiple bank of security cameras he wrote about the other day. My boot would be seen from a distance, and he could retreat to the safety of his mom’s basement before I was ever in the vicinity of Mr. White’s arse.
    Your assumption that Dr. Caner should “drop to his knees and ask forgiveness” is laughable. Forgiveness for what? He hasn’t done anything wrong. He hasn’t been “discovered”. But you have seen considerable evidence for Dr. Caner and deconstruction, line by line of his attackers and you choose to ignore it, so the reality is YOU harbor resentment in your heart for your brother in Christ and YOU need to repent and ask forgiveness.
    Do you have knee pads or should I send you some?

    Regards,

    Craig Daliessio
    Nobody from Nowhere

  • M Burke

    Wario, does Ergun Caner actually know Arabic?

  • http://wp.me/pIKnh-7x Diana Penn

    Hussein, I made a comment in response to your blog on my blog, because it started to get kind of long. :)

    http://wp.me/pIKnh-7x

    (drpenn)

  • http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/ Richard McGough

    Craig Daliessio wrote: This has become a black eye for the Church in general, my alma mater and for a VERY Good Man, who bleeds when cut and who has a wife and children who suffer too. SHAME ON YOU for those of you who would be so ruthless.

    Craig, the only person who is “SHAMED” is the person who has caused this to go on and on and on for months. Ergun Caner could put an end to it all right now if he simply got on his knees and REPENTED before God and then STOOD UP and spoke the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. It would all go away instantly. He has been lying for nine years. The evidence is overwhelming and incontrovertible.

    It is his refusal to simply speak truth that keeps this sad saga going.

    And as for your godless attitude against James White. He has never written anything against anyone like ,a href=”http://aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3922″>the abuse you hurled against him when you wrote these words:

    Listen jack*** if you are going to quote my facebook entry USE MY NAME and quote me in context! I’m nobody with nothing to lose. I don;t have to worry about what the SBC thinks like the gracious Dr. Caner does. My South Philly upbringing and my righteous indignation coupled with my detest for frauds like you would not hinder me in the LEAST from showing up at your next public appearance and sticking a boot in your a****. You sicken me, you harm the body, and you offend the Spirit of the God you claim to serve but are wholly unfamiliar with, except on dusty pages of endless technical theology that you have likely not ONCE seen in real, God-breathed action. Your veil is thin, my arrogant reformer friend. You should sign all your writings “Mrs. Turpin”

    Pot meet kettle.

  • http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/ Richard McGough

    You wrote: It is a shame that even Christians mock Dr. Caner for mispronouncing Arabic terms or reciting “gibberish” while he converted to Christianity a few decades ago.

    Caner did not “mispronouce” Arabic terms – he spoke RANK GIBBERISH. Not a word of the “foreign language” he spoke after ‘Isa bin Allah” was any form of any human language. It was RANK GIBBERISH being presented as “Arabic” (or Turkish, or whatever). And Caner has done this many, many times, as you know, since it has been well-docummented by Khan and others.

    There is only one conclusion – Ergun Caner DELIBERATELY, WILLFULLY, AND REPEATEDLY LIED, LIED, and LIED AGAIN.

    You post is not helping defend Caner at all. It only demonstrates how his defenders need to ignore the evidential camel and focus on straining inconsequential gnats.

    The fact that you skillfully avoid the real evidence proves that you know it is powerful and irrefutable.

    Richard

  • http://none Craig Daliessio

    Peter…thank you from the bottom of my heart. I do not have the temperament to analyze this critically as you do. I merely see two fools attacking a brother in Christ (a term I choke on using because if I were to treat my biological brothers as this man is being treated I would be outcast from my own family) and I want blood. God forbid I am ever reckoned an “expert” in Italian language and culture because the differences between the old world Italian that my grandparents brought with them to this country in 1895, and what has morphed from that would render me a heretic and a laughing stock. Cappacola is “gabbagool” “Madonna!” is “Mah-done!” etc.
    Ergun Caner is my friend…not because he is an ex Muslim or because he is well known. You can be more famous by robbing a bank than by preaching the Gospel (for the most part). But I admire and respect ANYONE who gives themselves to such a passionate and LOVE MOTIVATED life calling of apologetics, research, and ministry. I also love any man or women of God who refuses to take himself so seriously that he resorts to regular 12 paragraph attacks on housewives and college students who disagree with him.
    James White spends most of his waking hours wishing he were Ergun, Emir or both. He would do well to emulate the passion and the MERCY and GRACE and LOVE that those to men effuse with each sermon and not the militant desire to please a vacuous God who is capricious and who cannot love. That is not the God of the Bible and surely not the God I experienced.
    There are some discrepancies for sure, but minor at best and having grown up in an Americanized version of an ancient culture I get it! This has become a black eye for the Church in general, my alma mater and for a VERY Good Man, who bleeds when cut and who has a wife and children who suffer too. SHAME ON YOU for those of you who would be so ruthless. A pox on your houses and I do pray this is visited on you someday.
    Peter, thank you again for your insightful research here.

    Best Wishes

    Craig Daliessio

  • Christian

    Interesting attack on Mr. Khan. But the reality is that Mr. Khan’s works were nothing more than interesting You-Tube works until others started to pick up on numerous other factual errors, of the sort that is easier to document.

    It is not likely that the picture of Dr. Caner as a child in a mosque includes his half-sister, as he claims never to have met his half-sisters until his father was on his deathbed. Further, the dress of each of the boys is hardly the traditional dress of any immigrant groups common in the US, much less those from Turkey. One of the boys is plainly wearing a woman’s nightgown over his clothes. This was clearly some kind of dress-up event, skit or other such. Dr. Caner has also claimed that his childhood knowledge of Islam is irrelevant as he has 20 years of scholarship on the topic. Sorry to say, this doesn’t match with his credentials regarding his scholarly works. He also claims to have been raised in Turkey and schooled as a jihadist, despite documentation that places him in Columbus, Ohio at an early age. Further documentation places him in his mother’s (non-Muslim) custody.

    The one part of Mr. Khan’s work that might be worthy of notice if challenged, would be if anyone could match the gibberish to any known language on earth.

    It all makes for good story if one is about supporting Christians in an ongoing mistrust of Muslims. some of us don’t find that to be a very Christian undertaking.